Shabir Ally Owned Christian Scholar Nabeel Qureshi & Exposed Nebeel's Double Standard (2015)

by: Firra susai

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the word though he'd is not found in the Quran in fact it's not found anywhere in the hadith the concept of tawheed was continuing to be developed for hundreds of years after Muhammad that's why it wasn't found in hadith and in fact though he'd is complex both philosophically and theologically maybe lost about the the word tawheed it's not in mention in the Quran so isn't that a problem and Muslims say well Trinity is not mentioned in the in the Bible the comparable case is not made here because when we speak about tawheed that's that is a concept that Muslims are saying God is one and to say God is one the Arabic word for that is Tao aid but we don't have to use this word Muslims can repeat just the words of the Quran which says again and again umpteen times till you know if you're not a Muslim you might be tired of reading it you might be asking you know why is say so many times God is one okay I get it already in so many different ways the Kalima of Islam the cradle statement la ilaha illa Allah is mentioned in the Quran twice la ilaha illa llah who know god but he mentioned so many times in the Quran so the we can stick with just what is mentioned in the Quran but a convenient way for Muslims to say that is to say we believe or our concept is tawheed he never said that the word is not even mentioned in the hadith but bilal philips has shown in his book fundamentals of tawheed there is actually a hadith which speaks about making God one or considering God to be one which is what I do in in Arabic and and that is the same form or the same the verbal form of that is the verbal noun is actually tawheed now our complaint about the Trinity is that you needed a word to say that there are three in one because there is no verse in the Bible which actually says that Christians do not believe in three gods we believe in one God so I'm gonna give you a quick definition of the Trinity the Trinity is a belief that God is one only one God in three in persons in other words one being or one what there's one what he's got what I am is a human being what God is a Divine Being god there's one what but there are three persons three who's a being is that which makes you what you are a person is that which makes you who you are so what am i I'm a human being Who am I I'm Nabil those are two separate things what I am and who I am in the same way God is one what in three whose it's not a contradiction we're talking about the Trinity however we can see that there is a clear historical development it's no longer a mystery we can see how it all happened we can see that there is first of all a Unitarian Christianity in the early stages and then we have a Bennett Arian Christianity where we have now two persons who are God and eventually there is a Trinitarian Christianity now there are three a person so we go from Unitarian to Bennett Aryan to Trinitarian you also said that the Christian Trinity was First Unitarian then Bennett Aryan then Trinitarian please provide your proof I've provided the fact that the earliest Christian evidence is that Jesus was Yahweh we see in Mark's Gospel we see it in two pre Pauline hymns and Creed's the earliest stuff we have is that Jesus was Yahweh at least Bennett area at least Bennett earn must be dead Christians follow the Bennett Aryans among the Jews who said that there were put two powers in heaven in which case they deviated from the Old Testament did Nabeel try to tell us that Christians are following those who deviated of old and isn't that what the Quran says that they followed those who deviated of old in fact not what Nabil said actually to me confirms what the Quran told us 1400 years ago love is a good thing then I postulate that God has to be the most loving being if self-sacrifice is a good thing i postulate that god has to be the most self sacrificial if god if humility is a good thing i postulate that god has to be the most humble being in the universe and we see all these things coming together because God himself forgives all our sins not by overlooking them he wouldn't be just if you overlook them but by paying the penalty himself and that is why we can know that God has loved us from eternity past when he created us he's loved us he created us in His image because this triune God allows love to be part of his nature love is in his essence of who he is and that's what I'm telling you today none of us can make our way into heaven by ourselves I don't care who you are do you think you're perfect because heaven is a perfect place can you be perfect enough to enter into heaven we're all relying on the mercy and grace of God but I'm here to say that God gave it to us 2,000 years ago just accept his mercy the Jews have said that God was pluriform we see that in the New Testament that one of those persons became flesh and dwelt on this earth Jesus claims to be that God and when he died on the cross it was an act of forgiving our sins Tamar is a good fee at cost rate the guy has to be the most running game it's tough sacrifice it's a good faith I thought to make the guy happy to listen self sacrificial if not get community is a good thing i prostrate and Dona Felipa most humble being in the universe and we see all these things coming together because God Himself forgives our sins now by overlooking them he wouldn't be just the people with him but by paying the penalty himself and that is why we can no they gotta get my best filter t-test we pray ask each one best paid after him image because it's charging not arouse much behind his nature monkey thinking essence of who she is and that's why I'm telling you today none of us can be Iranian had a nice house I don't care who you are do you think a perfect ticket head is a perfect place can you be perfect enough and I can handle it over line on the missing grace of that guy later not dated to us 2,000 years ago to extract his mercy the Jesus said that I was chloroform we see that in the New Testament and one of those persons became flesh and welcomed his birth Jesus claims to be Matt God when he died on the cross it was an active forgiving isince first of all that there is no proof that God should be a Trinity from a rational perspective and the after-the-fact justifications that have been offered such as the god is love and therefore God is a Trinity the this kind of after-the-fact justification can be offered even if you said that God is that there are four persons but then I want to ask you how do we know when you say that a HUD is a complex one how do you know it to stop at three if it's complex one you can have 1 times 1 times 1 times 1 times 1 that is also equal to 1 why do you stop at three or four or five if God is is able to come down into this universe which is great I don't think that people are questioning the ability of God here we're just saying that this seems to be a logical impossibility because if you talk about the perfect God becoming an imperfect man and still being God at the same time then he's perfect and imperfect at the same time that seems to be a logical impossibility but the greater problem is how do you know that you stop at three there's no verse of the Bible which says that there are only three there used to be a verse first John chapter five verse seven but the wording of that verse no longer says that there are three who bear record in heaven and these three are one now in the end in the Bible's that you reading today what gives anyone the the firm conclusion that there are only three divine persons and you said why stop at three God's that's an interesting question I think it's because the Bible says three gods this is a matter of Revelation I'm sorry not three gods but three persons in the Godhead this is a matter of Revelation we look at what the scripture says we listen to God and say God what do you tell us I just heard a Nabil saying that the Bible says three persons in the Godhead I wrote it down as soon as he said it because first he made a mistake and said three gods and then he corrected himself and said three persons in the Godhead and saying that the Bible says this but I will tell you folks there is no place in the Bible where it says that there are three persons in the Godhead this wording just does not occur so Christians had to invent that very wording to say that there are three persons in one God and then in addition to that they invented the word Trinity the problem is not so much with the word Trinity it's the concept behind it that is the problem that concept is not found actually in the Bible that concept is a way of making sense of two things one is that the Bible clearly says that there is only one God many times in the Old Testament many times in the New Testament that's one fact the other fact is that Christians began to worship Jesus so now they found themselves with two gods and they know they can't have two gods so then they started to find a way to explain that this Jesus that they're worshipping is yahuwah himself are somehow Yahweh and so the idea of the Trinity came to be developed over time it is a patchwork joining two things which cannot really be joined and the themes are always showing because as James White said in this book The Forgotten Trinity it is easy to fall into a heresy when you when you think about the Trinity if you think as some Christians may say that God is like we might be a father and the son and the husband at the same time he said this is modalism that's a heresy so either you err on the side of modalism or are you an error on the side of try theism where you think of the God of Father Son and Holy Spirit as being so distinct from each other that really they become three gods in your mind so if you error this way are your era the other way here's the other point that I want to make to dr. Shapiro's Lee every single earliest record we have in the New Testament portrays Jesus as Yahweh the Karman Christi of Philippians 2 is one of the earliest records we have of Christian history it's an insight into the time before the New Testament was written right after Jesus was resurrected what does it do in verses 10 and 11 it says to Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue will confess where did they get that from Isaiah 45 where it says to Yahweh every knee will bow and every tongue will confess even before Mark's Gospel people are taking Yahoo his name and putting it in with Jesus and the early Christian apostles who follow Jesus their message did not survive their group survived as a group called IBO Knight named after Matthews statement apparently where Jesus says blessed are the poor so they were called the Ebionites the poor ones but their movement died out within the first few centuries of Christianity what did they believe they believe not in a triune God but they believe that Jesus was a prophet and a messenger of God they believed in only one God as Muslims - they believe this was the earliest belief but Paul is representing one particular view here and the view of Peter and other early disciples of Jesus did not survive to be written for us in the new estimate we do have two documents that are named first Peter and second Peter apparently letters of Peter written in Peters name actually but according to Martin Hengel these are pseudonymous works which means that somebody else wrote them using Peters name why would they want to do that well one reason is that if you look at second Peter you will see that second Peter praises Paul and speaks of him as brother Paul and speaks about his letters as if these are scriptures on par with the scriptures of God what these scholars are saying is that somebody who is a follower of Paul wanting to show Paul in a good light and wanting to show that Peter accepted Paul wrote this in order to promote Paul the fact that matter is something I did not hear disputed is that he said that Paul toes the line when you take out Yahweh and put in Jesus name that's not toeing the line you're saying Jesus is Yahweh that's what Paul does that's pre Pauline hymns the earliest Christians that we have they take Yahweh's name and they put Jesus names in that's the earliest stuff we know about Christianity that's why no arguments can be used which say that turning Jesus into a god is what happened they ultimately turned him into a divine the earliest evidence is that Jesus was treated as Yahweh i postulate that can only happen because jesus himself declared to be yahweh even in mark's gospel you've heard today no response to the fact that Jesus is Yahweh from the earliest of the four Gospels Nabil asked me to prove what the early Christians believed well as he said we don't have the direct writings of the earliest Christians we have second-hand reports the history is written by the winners and they were not the winners the winners may have misrepresented them but what we do know and what scholars can conclude is mentioned here by James Dunn in this book the evidence for Jesus page 96 he says for the Jewish Christian of the 2nd and 3rd centuries Jesus was simply a prophet and so on I don't have time to continue it but that is my evidence by citing scholars it's a way of proving a case thank you very much the first question I want to ask you is do you agree with the motto Zilly in that the Quran is not eternal or do you agree with the UH shaadi in that the Quran is eternal I believe that this debate has been overblown as many debates have been overblown in history sometimes people differ and they argue with each other and if they really sat down and listened to it what they were saying to each other they would realize that the difference is not as great as they thought it was and this is the kind of kitchen table debates this come on in many households when we look back at what they were debating we realize that both were right in some way when some people spoke about the uncreated Word of God they were thinking about the eternal knowledge of God which cannot conceivably be absent from God and when others spoke about the Quran being created they're speaking about the text that we hold in our hands that we recite with our tongues that we write with pen and ink so there were two different perspectives they were arguing about two different things sometimes people have to stop and define their terms and because people don't take the time to define their terms they argue about two different things and and it looks like they have an argument but essentially perhaps there is no real disagreement so I think they were both right in some way there's an eternal Word of God always with God that is his knowledge and at the same time there is a revealed Word of God which comes at a certain time in history and it responds to questions that were being asked of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and occasions as they arose so once again I want to ask and I said both are correct in some way but what I want to ask from you then is if the Quran the recited words of Scripture are something that are eternal from from the past eternity past is that Allah or is it something next to Allah something apart from Allah that people are reciting yeah well here we're talking about something mysterious we can ask this about many things we can ask him not only about the nurten knowledge of God we can ask about his mercy his forgiveness his patience his generosity are these things God or other and God and we need to now ask that not only of the Muslim we need to ask the Jew and the Christian as well because this is a problem for monotheism like to hear your answers to about this like what do Christians say the Christians say that the Torah is the eternal Word of God is a separate being along with God a separate person maybe add that to the Trinity make it make it a quality you've referred to lost beliefs about the Apostles would you had not at least agree that the pre Pauline hymns that we have are the earliest and as I presented they proclaimed Jesus as Yahweh as you said in your debate with James white and also you haven't touched any of the marking evidence I gave would you at least not agree that mark presents Jesus is Yahweh I wouldn't agree that either a Paul or Jesus or Mark presents Jesus as a Yahweh Paul despite what he says about Jesus and raising Jesus to a high status which Muslims would not accept but Paul stops short of making Jesus Yahweh for example 1st Corinthians chapter 15 verse 24 shows that in the final endgame and Jesus is going to return all power to God who gave it to him in the first place and and preist will be subjected to God so that God will be all in all which means that you do not have three co-equal and coeternal beings you have God who is greatest and Jesus who is under God that's why Paul could say in 1st Corinthians chapter 11 verse 3 at the head of every man is Christ and the head of Christ is God markcaswell does not present Jesus as Yahoo even though there are some passages which as you mentioned about preparing the way of the Lord which might tease the boundaries a little bit but that's different from mark coming out and say oh looks like Jesus is actually Yahweh a mark is actually very clear when he quotes Jesus in chapter 12 verse number 29 Jesus repeating the same shema yisrael saying that there was only one God the God of Israel and then the man who asked Jesus about this said you are right teacher there is only one God and besides him there is no other so the him is somebody else other than Jesus and then Jesus praised the man for having such deep insight so it's clear from Mark's Gospel that Jesus is not Yahweh mark chapter 13 verse 32 shows that Jesus does not know where the atman the hour will occur you just ended with talking about just Shimon Jesus praises him he says there's no god but he do you realize immediately after that Jesus then quotes Psalm 110 verse 1 which talks about two lords mark is introducing Jesus in the way he introduces Yahweh he has Jesus calming the storm the way Yahweh comes a storm he has Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath as Yahweh is Lord of the Sabbath he has Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven as Yahweh is on the clouds of heaven and you yourself did say in your debate with James white that in Philippians chapter 2 verses 1011 Paul substitutes Jesus with Yahweh do you not agree the fact that Paul T's the boundaries in this way by substituting Jesus for for Yahweh apparently in some verses should not be taken as a way of canceling everything that Paul has said it's very clear from elsewhere in Paul's writings as I've mentioned that Jesus the Christ is subjected to Yahweh if we take Timothy as the writing of Paul first Timothy chapter 2 verse 5 says that there is one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus so it's very clear from a passage like this that Jesus Christ is not it Yahweh when Jesus calms the storm or does these marvelous things that doesn't prove that he is God unless you divine you define God as someone who does some of the things that yahuah does but you have to come with a better definition than this God is that beyond which nothing greater can be conceived that is a definition of God it's a plastic one so if Jesus does some of the things that that some of the prophets for example can do like Elijah and Elijah have done in the Old Testament they perform miracles even if Jesus done some does some greater ones even if Jesus is the first creature that God created and then used him to create everything else that would make Jesus the most powerful created being we can imagine but he's still a created being and he's still not Yahweh who created him in the first place thank you gentlemen that was invigorating all right now doctor Kureishi you said that the Bible says three persons in the Godhead can you tell us where in the Bible that phrase occurs well I mean it in the exact same sense that you said though he was found in the Quran the word these words these terms were not found in the text just like you say just as the word though he is not found anywhere in the Quran and the word again we're talking about the words the word though he is not found in the hadith now I find it interesting that you quoted Bilal Philips fundamentals of thought he'd that's exactly what I'm quoting because he also says in the same book that there is no word though he'd in the hadith it's true but the concepts are there in the case of the Trinity in both the Old Testament and the New Testament we do see like I said from the beginning that the concept of God Elohim allows for plurality and then we take a look and see who are those those appearances those theophanies who claims those kind of prerogatives what exactly is the text saying Jesus is introduced as Yahweh as I said from the earliest level of Christian history there is no development that Jesus ultimately became God there is no oh the Romans thought that son of God meant there's none of that the very earliest evidence is that Jesus is Yahweh now dr. Kureishi in your speech you said that Psalm 110 or rather Genesis 19 speaks of Yahweh being here on earth with Abraham and but he's also in heaven and now when you speak when you say Yahweh is Yahweh the name of the three together Father Son and Holy Spirit or is he just the is Yahweh just the name of the Father and if the if father saw the Holy Spirit how do you explain the contradiction because it will mean that you have three on earth and three in heaven as well that's a good question I'm really glad you asked that because it's important we understand it it's Genesis 18 verses 1 & 2 which says that Yahweh appeared as a man and then 19 verse 24 is the one where you see Yahweh in front of Abraham and Yahweh from the heavens now yahweh is the word that we use to describe what god is it's the description of God's essence God is all three Father Son Holy Spirit when Jesus when we say that Jesus is Yahweh we mean that he has that essence he is one of the persons of Yahweh so Yahweh is the tri-personal Trinity God Jesus is one of the persons in the Trinity we see that again throughout the Old Testament you have these to Yahweh's appearing not that there are two gods we know that because there's only one God in in the Old Testament but then in the New Testament in some of those verses again like Daniel 7 and like Psalm 110 verse 1 Jesus is one of those two so it's not necessitating that Yahweh is Father Son and Holy Spirit every time the term is used when we say Jesus is Yahweh we're talking about he is Yahweh he's the second person of Yahweh in in defining yahuwah in this fence where sometimes Yahoo is father son Holy Spirit and sometimes he's not father son Holy Spirit aren't you falling into the fallacy of equivocation where you change to given almost like in a math problem where x equals 1 y equals 2 therefore X plus y equals 3 but somebody says no X plus y equals 4 why because x equals 2 so they're changing the given aren't you changing the given when when you say that sometimes Yahweh is Father Son Holy Spirit and sometimes he's not I want to clarify so thanks for giving me that opportunity again the Christians are working out as the Jews are as the Muslims are as we've all agreed that people are working out their theology the Christians are working out as the Jews are as the Muslims are as we've all agreed that people are working out their theology the Christians are working out as the Jews are as Muslims ours we won't agree but people working out their theology in my presentations I have spoken about three points text history and reason the thr of three as for text I said that the text of the Bible actually supports the Islamic belief in tawheed more so than belief in the Trinity I specifically said that there is no verse in the Bible which actually says that God is a Trinity or even limits the number of divine persons to three nabil says that there was but he actually could not produce a passage he for some triadic formulas but i showed other formulas in the bible which mentions for example the holy angels or mentions the seven spirits revelation 1/4 so how do you reconcile that with the trinity you have no way of knowing from the bible itself that there are only three divine persons there could be other divine persons if you open that up there is no closing it so they're muslim believe that there is only one god is a sensible approach to the bible okay dr. Cresci if Christ is fully God as well as fully man how can he speak of being forsaken by God as he dies on the cross that's a very interesting question and once again we have to make sure that we don't go beyond what scripture says and that's why theologians will discuss these things like we said in though he'd you know the answer for for over a thousand years has been Bill archive we don't know and if we say Bill archive for tawheed and we turn to the Trinity and say you need to explain everything that's inconsistent I think we should all understand the greatness and glory of God and that there is going to be some lack of comprehension because God is greater than our comprehension he created our comprehension or thinking for me stand with legacy you've told him that there is going to be some lack of comprehension and when we look at the words of Jesus his dying words on the cross the four different Gospels have different wording Michael Guldur in his book st. Paul versus Saint Peter has shown that this is part of the two streams of thought that went out from early Christianity and mark the death of Jesus appears very bleak and Matthew appears better and look better still in Luke if father into your hands I commit my spirit so it looks like Jesus is actively engaged in doing something with his own spirit here and in the Gospel according to John it is finished that's what Jesus says last as if Jesus is in full control he completed his mission he finished the whole thing and now he's gracefully leaving not the loud cry it's not there in John why the story about Jesus has been changed from one gospel to another Jesus's image has been photoshopped in mark's class he appears very weak and his death appears very bleak and John's Gospel he is triumphant and his death appears to be a victory fact this will blow your minds but it's a historical fact no one no one who ever met or saw Jesus wrote a single word about him every word ever written about Jesus was written by someone who never met him in fact this will blow your minds but it's a historical fact no one no one who ever met or saw Jesus wrote a single word about him every word ever written about Jesus was written by

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