our next speaker today is one of the best-known researchers in the world of UFO phenomena but what is of a particular note is that his entire career as a ufologist has been in parallel with his role as a government scientist he was part of the aviary group codename seagull he studied physics at were Chester Polytechnic Institute and then at American University where he got his master's and PhD in 1972 he commenced his career at the Naval Service Surface Warfare Center where he worked on optical data processing lasers the Strategic Defense Initiative and ballistic missile defense and is presently involved in a program related to Homeland Security our speakers other career began when he joined the National Investigations Committee on aerial phenomena and he was active in research and investigation for the organization until it closed in 1980 he had joined MUFON in 1975 and was subsequently appointed to the position of State Director for Maryland a position he still holds in 1979 he was instrumental in establishing the fund for UFO research and was a chairman for 13 years he presently serves on the National Board of the fund he's the author or co-author of about three dozen technical articles and more than 100 UFO articles over the last 30 years he is co-author with Edward Walters of UFOs are real here's the proof and the author of the UFO FBI connection and the novel abduction in my life he's listed in Who's Who and technology today and American men and women of science our speaker is one of the most interviewed researchers in the field including print radio and TV media since 1978 he's also appeared in a number of documentaries please welcome dr. Bruce Maccabee 2x conference 2008 well folks you've heard from the man in black now you're going to hear from the man in white anyway we're going to get to the tales of the haq and haq is a code name for a retired Air Force colonel is it's a lot easier to just refer to him as hawk
the reason that I'm discussing hock now even though my investigation of him was 20 years ago actually 23 22 23 years ago is because of a book written by former Air Force captain Robert Collins Collins was at the foreign technology division and starting in 1985 foreign technology division at wright-patterson Air Force Base and this is where he started asking some questions about UFOs and some people there said oh you ought to talk to this guy here who has been interested in it for a long time and that's how Collins discovered hawk and then he introduced talk to me I talked to them on the phone numerous times sort of long interviews and then I actually met him so what you're about to hear is information that sort of is similar to what John Alexander just talked about second hand or third hand type of information so-and-so said so-and-so to me but Hawk had a couple of his own experiences which are quite bizarre now in this book which was just written a few years ago that's now up to the third edition in this book the period of time that I was interviewing hawk it's just completely glossed over no mention of it at all that's why what I'm about to tell you is interesting because you can see in his book what the follow-on was how hawk was a major force in the region what ended up being a so-called UFO cover-up live-show how many people here ever saw that I was in October of 1988 you can get it on DVD supposedly I would imagine somewhere how that came about is told in this book but the stories that I'm about to tell you are not told in this book so this is what you're going to hear is a back story from what I call the hawk tales as I said this was based on interviews that were done 23 and 22 years ago he retired in 1979 from the Air Force he had been in charge of this advanced physics division at FTD honey was when he was active and he emphasized in his discussions with me if you could understand the infrastructure then you can decide that you can get a good idea to look for where to look for covert UFO related activities and he offered to help us look for the understand what the infrastructure was he also said that he had most of what he was going to tell me was based on what he had been told but he had his own experiences so there's two types of information from hawk one is his own personal stuff which then you hear for me which is like your mere point of view that secondhand and I can pretty well guarantee that what he told me is what I'm going to tell you and then there's the information that he was told by other people which is second or third hand depending how you want to look at it so his first experience comes when he's a isn't even in the air the Air Force indirectly himself he's a reserve officers Training Corps I was taken out on a tour of wright-patterson Air Force Base and on this tour they're going through one building and after another you know looking at the various research projects and so on and he was with several other people walking along when they ended up in the what he calls the wrong place somehow they wandered into an area where they weren't supposed to be and they were walking through a big long building inside of the rest of the tour group it was way ahead to them so they decided to take a shortcut through some small cubicles you might say and as they're walking through they see these flying saucer models or what looked like flying saucer models along with other mid toilet wind tunnel models there there were wind huddle models of your standard aircraft shape with the fuselage and wings and so on and then there were these round things it looked like disks with dome on the top there are all models in the you know this is the standard technique for Windtunnel tests to find out the aerodynamics you make a model of what it is you put it inside a a a long chamber where air blows down through at high speed and you see what happens to the lift if there are any lift characteristics or I was going to fly in the real world at this time while they're standing there looking at these models one of the students said his father had been briefed on UFOs and flying saucers so this stuck in Hawks mind but he didn't do anything about it at the time he just noted that was interesting he was interested in the flying saucer model more interested in the flying wing model that he saw there but he recalled a saucer and gave a careful verbal description in his description of this one foot diameter model was this the underside of it there was a circular ring around and then the underside was beveled down to not a bowl shape but it had a formation under it then the top had another relief formation and then another relief formation as you kind of sliced a world worn one submarine and - without the conning tower and made everything flatter but you know where there was a bowing it was like that and then there was a cockpit area in the center and then there was something like a flaring back from there now I sent Hawk a picture of an actual UFO sighting that occurred may 24th 1949 this is case 10 a special project Bluebook special report for number 14 how many people are familiar with that this is a special report 14 was done in 1955 by Project Blue Book people they published it but it was done by in conjunction with the Battelle Memorial Institute and they analyzed 3200 and some sightings in a very detailed manner using computer analysis and so on but as they went through these 3201 sightings they picked out 12 that they considered to be the best cases and this is one of them right here and you can see the way this thing is drawn this is a drawing of this report was made directly to the yeah the National Academy of National Advisory Committee on aeronautics by the person one of the people who is a witness there are two witnesses who worked at Ames Research Laboratory in just near San Francisco where they did classified research on flight tech characteristics and one guy was a draftsman the other guy was a wind tunnel mechanic then there were three other witnesses so total of five people witnessed this thing in May 24th 1949 and this thing was observed to come they were facing towards the east they're on the Rogue River in Oregon fishing and they were losing binoculars to look around and see if there were fish jumping anywhere and they saw this thing come in from their left hand side that is from the north stop hover sit there for a minute or more rotate on its axis and then take off at a speed comperable to that of a jet made no noise they thought the thing was maybe a mile away from them so this drawing and this report were in as I said the special report 14 here's the drawing the hawk made this is what he said he saw when he was in the early 1950s taking a sort of a semi illegal tour through part of a break Patterson Air Force Base okay his second experience is more bizarre than that he became a meteorologist and was signed statements and to a post in Japan in October 1957 as a staff weather officer he was told at that time that there have been a couple of f-106 ha's which were new jets at the time they were specially instrumented in station and several islands near Japan it was a new type of aircraft at the time two of them were at Misawa which is the northern end of the main Japanese island of Honshu two at Okinawa a small island southwest of aren't you I was told that they were especially instrumented f-106 is I thought that was strange because the 106 was just being in produced in the States I didn't learn any more about them until 1957 or in 1957 about a year later in the spring of 59 f-106 were available by then I was in the combat operations center it was early in the evening it was just getting to be dusk I was giving the weather forecast as I always did because I was a staff weather officer to the combat operations center I'll just tell you the story of what happened and you can take it for whatever you want so you can imagine this is him talking to you people right now while I was there one of the guys because they had a big graphic board that you write upside down on and all that kind of wonderful stuff people who are putting on the symbols for the weather you know on a big board that everybody can see that in the operation control center because they had a big graphic board that you write upside down on and all that kind of wonderful stuff you invited me in to see some of the operations and how it work so we were standing there when all of a sudden all hell broke loose and everybody got excited and one of the guys blurted out they're back again and I said what is back again the fellow who was escorting me through the facility because I gave briefings there because I gave briefings there all the time on the weather and so they were plotting all the aircraft and so on on the large graphic board there were no aircraft in the area of where this event occurred they had just plotted something just south of Misawa between Honshu and hokkaido and the main North Island of Japan but on the Pacific Ocean side in that area and he the guy who was acting as a guide system he there is an unidentified object flying there a flying object there and I said why is that important or something to that effect and he says we have them quite frequently and said they travel around 2,000 miles an hour and he said for some strange reason it is quite frequent that one of them will stop they were just usually in groups of two or three and one would just stop and hover in a stationary position so the guys doing the radar we're plotting the radar locations on this big screen where you're right upside down and so on and he said they will stay there any for from half an hour to several hours maybe even up to three hours and then they proceeded between the two islands and then they disappear off the scope so you can't track them in other words they go between that straight in there is the between Honshu and hokkaido towards the sea of japan and then they just disappear off the screen so if you can imagine what japan looks like with an island this way in an island this way in a gap in between he's talking about them hovering over the gap area between the island then somebody who's in this control centre asked you know shall we scramble them which implies scrambling some Jets the implication being that they don't like having these things hovering up there so we better take some action find out what it is and I said to my friend what are they talking about and he said the two especially instrumented f-106 is they've been especially instrumented to track and fire on these things the commander who is there said will scramble do you think it will stay there and someone else said yeah it's behaving like it has done before so the commander says let's scramble so now they put in a phone call to one of the islands to see if they can scramble in f-106 and so they ordered a scramble but the report came back that one of the planes couldn't get fully functional he was having difficulty with his instruments and so the commander says damn there it goes again we've had this every time we've tried to scramble and the other guy the other pilot of the other aircraft says I'm functionally okay about two navigation aids out but everything else appears okay and my special sensor is operating so the commander says go ahead and launch then someone said shall we proceed with just one and there were some hemming and hawing for about a minute or less and then the commander said go ahead they then asked me for a forecast fortunately he had just happened to be in the room there and they knew the forecast to know what with us what the f-106 pilot would find when he starts going upwards to the altitude of this object I told him there were some low clouds than a middle layer of cloud in there and oh I forgot about 15 16 thousand feet or something like that but I said clear clear on top with just a light cirrostratus above that and there was a full moon and so someone said yep then he won't have any trouble tracking this object the pilot then climbed on out and after a minute or so said he was clear on top then there were a few minutes maybe eight or ten minutes and he says he's got it in sight because there was a general interest in what was happening radar operators turned on a speaker system and that way we could hear the downlink voice from the pilot so now Hawk could not hear what the controllers were saying but he could hear what the pilot was saying everybody in the room could hear what was upon what the pilot was saying and he said he's got it in sight the radar operators had a tie-in with the Misawa operators on the radars and they were the only ones who could hear the ground link-up so we heard only one half the conversation that is what pilot was saying they were vectoring him in and then he said I've got it in sight he described the object is round or circular a metallic object that was hovering it had a cockpit or something like vertical stabilizer similar to what I saw on those models remember he's drawing in fact he was describing what I saw in those models so I thought well gee that's very interesting and he said it was a UFO and he had it in sight and he asked should I make a firing pass and the men in the control room said we better get authority for that now here's a hawk talking about his own experience as a weather authorized officer I worked over there for two or three years and I was in typhoon forecasting it was high-priority and if you ever tried to get single-sideband back in those days that was the latest advance in communications it was still difficult to get communication back so what he's saying at a priority message that there's a typhoon coming he wants to send information to the Pentagon or whoever needs the information uh he would have a special way of getting a high priority channel on this so-called single sideband which is a particular way of handling radio signals and so he was expecting a some some short delay but not some delay but not too long and being able to send this message out and get a response back yes we got your message so they got a communication link in less than five minutes which impressed the heck out his Hawk I guess yeah and he said we'll call the Pentagon to get the authority and it came back and said yes we'll make the firing pass so presumably you know if Hawks story is correct so up to this point what you've got is a couple of objects come along that are picked up on radar by some installations in Japan one object hug hovers over the gap between the two islands the other object takes off and while this object is hovering they decide to scramble an aircraft they originally try to scramble two aircraft that are specially instrumented he didn't know what this instrumentation was supposed to do special aircraft that would go up and view this thing and then they would decide what to do about it so it does at this point then they've decided they sent a message to the Pentagon saying we got one of these things here what are we going to do about it and you get a message back saying well fire on it the pilot said ok we'll roll in so he rolled in and he fired off his missiles Haughton didn't specify what the missiles were but I presume these are some version of the Sidewinder missile available at the time which would be a heat-seeking missile and all of a sudden he went into a strange type of falsetto voice I had never heard before he blurted out that he fired and they had detonated but did not hit it in other words the missiles didn't make it to the target but they blew up anyway they detonated just at the edge of it like a shield he said like an invisible shield and he said it doesn't look like any of the shrapnel or anything penetrated through and he says they've turned on some kind of beam and they're turning that is the whole object was rotating and then he says they're coming after me he went into a very controlled diving maneuver then the radar operators started screaming out it's moving it's vectoring towards him and then they started counting out the ranges as the distance was shrinking so at this point standing in the controls the power listening to the control-room listening what's going on Hawk is hearing something that few people I would hope have ever heard a flying saucer starting to an attack I get it looks like an attack on a jet aircraft and the pilot was just breathing breathing heavy and obviously under great control stress but control then he said is moving closer and he just kept describing how it kept gaining on him and this beam was coming towards him and then the radar operator said so the guys on the ground see these two blips on the radar screen a little dot that represents the airplane another dot that represents the UFO they merged contact two blips matched and then the radar officer operators that there's no separation and then he says the thing is stopped it's just now a single blip hovering but there's nothing else and what happened then is for four days after that I gave weather weather briefings every day or search up there and they never did find anything now is this story true is this something a hawk actually saw it actually happened we have any records of it if it actually happened there our records somewhere I'm sure buried Donna said nobody's interested in this stuff but it goes somewhere maybe nobody pays any attention to it afterwards but you know from Hawks story the implications they were prepared for this event something like it at that time I did not know about UFOs and I just didn't take it for anything unusual I just thought oh well some kind of experimental aircraft if somebody was after him because like I said I couldn't have cared less but taking this event at face value there are several things that come out of it number one and here's hawk talking no one wanders the Air Force was prepared those airplanes were in position for a year and a half before that incident took place the guy who was telling me said that the UFOs had a routine pattern of operation and that's why we positioned those aircraft on the islands for some reason there was a regular pattern established by the UFOs number two is that the Air Force denies they ever had an aircraft shot down by a UFO number three is that they always denied the eret ready to shoot down a flying saucer so the Air Force denies that a saucer denies attacking saucers and the Air Force denies that saucers ever attacked here at an Air Force point now we know more recent events for example that's been mentioned earlier the f4 jet case and Iran where when the jet two Jet's one after another approached and got to within a distance according to their own radar about 25 nautical miles all of a sudden their communications got very very fuzzy and it couldn't even communicate with the guy in the backseat that's presume a hardwired communication I know how you stop that well anyway that's sort of like not a direct attack on the f4 maybe but something close to it and I don't know that the Air Force ever had any official statement about the Iranian jet case we know that some documents got leaked out and that's how he found out about it and just as recently as last November the pilot of the second f4 jet harvest Jefferson Jafari was here at the press conference that was held last November in Washington DC and I got to talk to him I had written a large report on this thing years ago and actually put it on my website a year or so ago the report as told by the air traffic controller so anyway that was the f4 situation in in Iran presumably we never would have heard about it if it hadn't been for the fact that somebody I think it was Colonel Evans of the Defense Intelligence Agency who leaked that document to jack off of NICAP in 1976 anyway continuing with a hawk he says behind beyond that I can't say much except that I never heard that falsetto voice again until I went to air commands to rule in 1967 or I heard some tapes from some wild weasel pilots now these were the guys over got nan where they had the Vietnamese had installed Sam surface-to-air missiles that would attack the jet aircraft as they're flying over to do their bombing run in order to a SAM missile was another type of heat-seeking missile and once one of these things as long as you have on your aircraft you have a device that's monitoring what's going on with this missile you know when you tell when it's coming up and what it's getting behind you and so on the objective is to avoid being hit by the missile obviously well I had they what our guys wanted to know where the missiles were going to be launched from so they would send out special pilots the so-called wild weasels to go out and draw ah and actually accept an attack that as you fly along and wait for this guy down the ground to launch his missile then somebody else comes along behind you and zaps the place where the missile was launched from but now you've got a missile tailing you and what do you do about it so and he said that he had heard some tapes from some wild weasel pilots and it sounded like a wild weasel jet fighter pilot and when he says they've launched a missile from the ground and it's coming up the jet pilot can't find it he doesn't know where it is in his controlled terror and the voice that switches to a high falsetto so he's saying when he heard the pilot f-106 in 1957 off the coast of Japan is the voice go up into this high falsetto controlled fear you might say he didn't hear that he had never heard that before and didn't hear it again until he heard some wild weasel pilot tapes in 1967 okay so that finishes Hawks own personal experience with a very sensational type of case and if if this were to be taken seriously you know if it could be proven if you actually dig up the records be kind of hard to deny that we've got flying saucers doing things around the world that that we can't do so anyway after Japan Hawk went back to school and then to the electronic systems division of the Air Force at Cambridge Libre Cambridge Research Laboratory which is near Boston hog became involved with the study of nuclear weapons effects during atmospheric tests in the 1960s and he became a consultant on a instrumentation of those tests he went to a conference on nuclear effects in 1964 in Albuquerque New Mexico the Kirtland Air Force Base in Sandia a laboratory with a Air Force Cambridge research laboratory colleague by the name of Robert Hitler and this guy Hitler plays a significant role in things that even Hawk didn't realize but anyway during a dull part of the conference with Sandia scientist whose name was not recall offered to give Bob and Hawk a tour of the facility where they did atomic radiation experiments but large animals so Bob and Hawk and some others drove south from a Sandia lab to a special installation where there were animal pens in a building in a small guard tower which is east of the present-day solar power tower so if anybody ever to go out to Albuquerque New Mexico you can actually go in and you can tell them you're going to the atomic power museum the atomic energy museum at Sandia and you can get through the guard gate you know as a civilian don't need any big clearance to get onto the base and then you can keep on driving and go way back they have a the solar power tower set setup is this situation where I don't know when that was 20 or 30 years ago they built this test system to have a whole bunch of mirrors concentrating sunlight at one particular focal point where they were determining how much power they could get out of the sudden under certain conditions but not far from that is a what he says here animal pens in a building with a small guard tower and when I was checking up on what Hawk said I found what I believe is that installation in 1986 anyway there they saw a vault whether a nuclear radiation source was operated while at the nuclear installation they noticed a number of Army and Navy doctors that did autopsies on irradiated animals and the shielding for this system and he said was three layers of battleship steel plus lead then someone pointed out now I might mention that the experiment that they were doing was he said they would put a cow or some animal inside some from room which was itself completely contained and radiation shielded from the outside so no radiation get out then they would bring up from underground some radiation source hold it there for a period of time put that radiation source back down into the ground and then they would measure whatever it happened to the animal then someone pointed out the large number of doctoral degrees held by the Navy doctors who are these experiments 24 degrees for three of them they say the question was what research needs so many degrees and the answer was the degrees were needed for autopsies of humanoids by which he meant aliens now this supposedly is what some people are telling hawk and this guy Bob while they're inventing and while they're visiting this nuclear installation the general response of hawk and the others in this group was this must be but Bob wanted to check it out he was invited to the administration building Hawk didn't go because he wasn't interested hour and a half later Bob came back and started talking about what he had seen Bob said he's got pictures of three whole bodies of non-human creatures et aliens and bits and pieces of others and so on three whole bodies were at wright-patterson Air Force Base now you have to understand this is Hawk telling me what he claims to have been told by Bob Hitler back in 1964 Bob said that the doctors were astounded according to them there was no esophagus no stomach nor reproductive system also the blood was different not green or anything like that but different about five feet tall with tiny features and bone structure and slanted eye Bob want to get assigned to this project but he was told you don't ask they invite you well I was told of several installations around Albuquerque where secret alien work was done I was told the famous Sandia Peak tramway company was set up to provide cover for alien work in the Albuquerque area how many people have ever been to Albuquerque how many people have been up Sandia Peak very few well that was a even get on this cable car and ride way up to the top of the mountain anyway Bob and Hawk toward Albuquerque looking for the installations including a clubhouse for the control group met Bob and Hawk found several of the buildings years later remember this is back in 1964 when Bob and Hawk are driving around trying to find evidence that these people actually had a group that was meeting and doing research on on aliens years later 1985 investigations by myself and by Bill Moore found the same installations and buildings generally confirming what Hawk said about the existence of these buildings it was not possible to prove the tramway company had been founded as a cover organization we looked up the history of it one of those things where yeah it could be very cleverly done but there'd be little or no way of proving it without getting some one of the original founders of the tramway organization to admit to something here's a map that hot he took a regular map and then wrote all over it you can see the the descriptions and where the buildings were and where in 1968 he's claiming that there was a special meeting of the equivalent of mj-12 whether it was called that or not a meeting at this Clubhouse of the BAA near the bottom of the tramway here's his map of where the nuclear installation was and he don't have a pointer down here in the lower right hand corner you see his drawings of X's and so on that's where this installation supposedly was that was still there in 1985 the buildings were still air place had been abandoned for a long time was all grown over but the tower the little Tower was still there fences around it and so on I actually went into the end of the room into the building itself and looked around but there wasn't anybody there so anyway back in 1964 Bob and Hawk toured the Albuquerque Bob left Bob left the Air Force Cambridge research laboratory about a year later this would be 1965 Bob visited hcaaf crl and bumped into hawk Bob told hawk he had gotten the assignment and now worked for the real Project Blue Book and Hawk says to me Bob repeated that said that three times a real project Bluebook Hawk did not know what that was so he didn't pursue the matter but that makes it sound like there was a blue book and then there was a real Project Blue Book Hawks testimony appeared that Robert Hitler had joined the inside group this is me talking or during this investigation of Hawks a testimony Hitler to me it was just a fable I didn't even know if he was a real person so in other words I'm listening to hawk in 1985-1986 tell me about this what this guy Hitler has told them you know which is pretty amazing stuff we got sign of this Navy scientists doctors working on on aliens somehow or other Hitler was just a fable so in 1960 in 1985 1986 I was reading through notes written by dr. James McDonald I had his file let's stop now a McDonald died in 72 or 73 the Navy had kept records that make things file in documents that McDonald had sent to the Navy McCain was MacDonald in this in the 50s and 60s with a well known atmospheric scientist he was doing project work for the Navy the Navy this is a contract monitor had a file on McDonald that is all the documents that McDonald could send him to exclude a lot of letters and in the 1960s McDonald got interested in the UFO subject and in the lead-up to the continent the time during the lead-up to the qanun study 1965 66 67 that timeframe McDonald became very active in running around trying to get giving lectures at numerous government and our own and company organizations and he wrote back to James Hughes who was his contract monitor numerous letters about what he was doing and in one of these letters that I was reading a letter that was written in 1967 I think it was RC Britain 1966 I was reading a letter written by dr. James McDonald to James Hughes and in it he's discussing how the government or the Air Force was trying to find some university to take on this study which was ultimately taken on by University of Colorado but at the time of this letter no organ no University and said ok we'll do your UFO study for those of you who don't remem which is probably most of you 6566 was a time of a big flap of sightings in the United States there was congressional pressure on the Air Force to fund an independent investigation because Blue Book had lost all credibility especially when debt doctor J Allen Hynek in early 1966 after some sightings in Hillsdale Michigan and so on said oh this is all swamp gas that was where the famous swamp gas stuff came from the Air Force was losing a lot of credibility people weren't believing that the Air Force was treating this thing in a reasonable manner so Congress directed the Air Force to having it hold an independent study and at this time in 1966 time of this letter the Air Force had not yet narrowed down on what organization what University would actually do the study so anyway while I'm reading a letter written in 1966 by dr. change McDonald I came upon Hitler's name and I can say as I was my eyes were going along from left to right along this line of print I'm reading the sentence and my eyes absolutely stopped moving when I saw Hitler there was a shock to me this guy was real not only that but he was the person assigned by the Air Force Office of Scientific Research to find the organization the University that was going to carry out the study he was in charge of trying to contract out this project so that meant that he had considerable control over how this contract was going to be written well so Hitler was a real guy and as I said here is a historic character he was in charge of locating University carry out the congressionally mandated UFO study he had the perfect job if the quote real project look wanted to affect or control this independent study he didn't succeed in finding a university so he another top Air Force scientist completed the job a few months after Hitler stopped think about it if this guy Hitler was part of the real project Bluebook and the real project project Bluebook realizes well we've got to go along with the public demand for an independent study but we want to exert as much control over that study make sure you come up with the right answer that would be the way to do it anyway in 1986 Hitler was contacted by Bill Moore to find out if he would say anything about the real project Bluebook he refused to talk about any of his UFO activities even his public doing known activities leading up to the Kahn study the real Project Blue Book is still a mystery whoo bad Hawk didn't pay closer attention and okay so here's some other stories told by hot scared guards at Indian Springs in 1970 1970 Hawk was directed to set up seismometers in the caves in the Indian Springs area of a national test site in Nevada this is where they set off underground nuclear explosions to record seismic effects of nuclear explosions Hawk went to the test site to install seismometers this involved traveling over many miles in the desert and mountain seismometers or devices that measure the shaking of the ground if you you always hurt all heard about the Richter scale I presume the strength of an earthquake and is determined by how much a signal coming out of a seismometer and I just had a five-point to shock just two days ago in the Midwest anyway Hawk says we drove to the test site which is large about 100 miles from north to south it's a big area there's a highway that goes right up the middle of it as you drive you keep climbing higher and higher higher higher plateaus we came to a gate across the road the guard in the car in front of us open the gate and we went onward then we hit another gate and then there were big sign saying essentially keep out government property they were freshly painted and we had to go on so the guard said you're going up in there and we described where we had to go and he said I don't like it I just don't like it the guard was very nervous so we went on he came to two big signs and the road just paid from there on it goes right up the mountain towards area 51 so we were like 30 miles from the top of the ridge maybe 40 and we could see the pass up there there was a big sign and it gave all kinds of huge warnings that said you are approaching area 51 I've forgotten all the details but there were kinds of warrant but their work on all kinds of warnings that you could not go to area 51 warnings of deadly force being used to keep people out mind you this is after we went through to lock gates all ready so they're penetrating into more and more classified area anyway we went on up there and we turned left and went up to an old trail to one of our on the old abandoned gold mines we placed our seismometers in the mine way back in the mineshaft you have to get a good quiet place with good Rock and it was getting kind of late because we were having trouble balancing them which is often the case because they're very very delicate so you imagine if you had something like a pendulum swinging and you had to make sure that everything was perfectly steady as a reference or when the ground starts to shake anyway so it was taking a little longer in the guard just said I can't take it any longer I've got to leave so they had a guard along with them see get him through all these gates they had to go through but he was getting nervous he didn't want to stay there until nighttime and we said to the guard well why and he said look people have disappeared up in here we have had numerous guards just literally disappear up in this area after dark so we didn't give it any thought but I've never seen anyone so antsy and nervous in my life anyway he said he was leaving and he would go down again to the second locked gate he said I'll leave the first one open for you just lock it when you get there and I'll be past the second one because I'm not staying around here the guard left well it got dark and it took a while I'd say good half an hour to 45 minutes from there to get down to the gate and so when we stopped and closed the gate that's the first one came down farther we're still up on a high plateau and we looked down on the next gate below and there was a car it looked like somebody was pacing back and forth and headlights of the car it was the guard he was pacing back and forth like a frightened animal and we got there he was just chain-smoking one after another and he said you're alive and we said yeah we didn't crash or anything and he says when he said no no that wasn't what he says no no that wasn't what I was worried about and then he asked did you see any UFOs and we said no are we supposed to he says they're always up there they usually come in about 10 o'clock or 11 sometimes a little later like midnight and any guards that have been up there have disappeared he was literally amazed that we didn't see anything or that we had even come out okay weather men at Indian Springs recent investigation of the claims by Charles Hall how many people have heard of him guy who writes about the tall Heights has located several men who were weather observers in the early middle 1960s at Indian Springs Nellis Air Force Base area they claimed they were aware of and afraid of strange things that happened at night in that area well here's what Hawk had to say about scared guard at the McCormick Ranch which is just area a large area south of Kirtland Air Force Base in 1984 Hawk was working on a project near Kirtland Air Force Base he was told by security guards around the McCormick Ranch area south of Curtin that no one wanted to stay out at night because of UFOs this was in the early 1980s consistent with what I call a Kirtland landing document of 1980 I have a my website of paper entitled the current landing or welcome to the cosmic Watergate which is discussion of actual events at Kirtland Air Force Base and east of Kirtland Air Force Base in a secure area run by the Sandia Padilla National Laboratory anyway Hawks map showing the coyote Canyon and McCormick Ranch is here and I should have a arrow and a little boxing area where the landing occurred in August of 1980 the Kirtland landing document I call at which is a actual document front you can get under the Freedom of Information Act from the Air Force Office of like I think of AAF OSI Air Force Office of Special Investigations McCormick Ranch is just west and south of Sandia base and we were working on some tests out there while we were waiting for a crane or something we got to talking with some guards they're all goosey as hell about staying out there when it got close to dusk they were going getting the hell out of there so we were asking why and then they were telling me all these strange events of UFOs they're telling me about the fact that they were a bit leery because they were moving up with moving the things from the McCormick Ranch up to Coyote Canyon and they said the fact is that very free when the UFOs are seen in the area now here's Hawk saying all I know is what the guy told me and all I know is they would not stay at the McCormick Ranch several times we had to work late and they weren't supposed to but they gave me the combination to the gate and said here it is unlock it and get out yourself in fact in recent years and he told me this in 1984 in the early that's Hawk saying and he was being told in the early eighties they were surrounding three or four sightings a week the guard statement about many sightings is supported by the AF OSI document which reports the landing east of the Manzano weapons storage area that is currently Air Force Base and three other sightings in August 1980 what I call a Kirtland landing document that you can get from the Air Force Office of Special Investigations I investigated this document which rather was by the way how I got introduced myself to a guy named Richard Doty my only interaction with him was in investigating this particular series of events but this particular document talks about the mean the Kirtland landing what I call the Kirtland landing itself was seen by a security guard of an object that had it was in a in a inside an alarmed structure that is a building with a big fence around it he said he's driving his his Jeep along he sees this light inside the alarm structure it doesn't know what it is he tries to call back to the base Sandia base headquarters but distance about four miles ordinarily it would have good communication but on this particular night he wasn't able to communicate at all so he gets it takes his gun gets out of the Jeep starts to walk towards this thing and it suddenly takes off going straight up unbeknownst to this guard there were several people at the Manzano weapons storage area people who drive around an area that had mountains you can go out there and see where the mountains are now but you don't see the big double fence that they used to have around it this Mind's on weapons storage areas where they actually stored nuclear weapons at various times and the guards were going around and driving around the the the road that went around this area secure access road and they saw this object this light in the sky dropped down behind some mountains west east of their location it was a minutes after that the guard was driving along and he saw the thing on the ground now the guys back of the mines on up in storage area couldn't see it at that point it was behind some mountains next thing they know they see a light shoot bright straight up and that was the thing that this guard saw as he walked towards it it took off going straight up well in the second page of this current and landing document it talks about New Mexico State Police and sighting a material object in mine in the Manzano is between Berlin and Albuquerque New Mexico and saw and reported it to Kirtland Air Force Base and the Kirtland public information office advised the patrolman the US Air Force no longer investigate such sightings unless they occur on a US Air Force Base only the official position of the Air Force for years and years and years had been we never investigate UFO sightings period now we find out there well if it happens occur on a Air Force Base yeah we'll investigate here's a satellite map of Albuquerque with showing the area that we're talking about a man's on a weapons storage area with these lines that go around and making a great big loop that's where the big fences were a no-man's land with tank traps practically and everything else you know to keep people out and to the right on that map over to the right is where the last bunker on the left was the description of where that occurred okay well I and concludes my description of what I was told by hawk 20 years ago and don't you Minister 10
after according to Collins's book I was not involved with any of the stuff that happened after I last saw Hawke Amaya last time I saw him was in February of 1986 we had dinner together and he further amplified on things that he had told me over the telephone it was after that that Hawke had arranged arranged to be a source I guess you could say for a show that turned out to be UFO cover-up live put on by Guiana Seligmann and this this was an attempt not only to release information to the general public but to stir up the people on the inside and see if there's any reaction and I've been told that there was but I was not privy to most of that stuff I was out a bystander like the guy who gets shot you might say cover up live show was a pretty gutsy thing to do cover up live literally was a live TV show by 1980s people were doing canned TV shows all the time but to actually put on something like they did in the 50s and 60s when they had comedy shows and so on it were that were live productions by the time we got into this late 70s and 80s they want to have everything can so could there's nothing going to go wrong with it it's putting on a live show was little gutsy and they not only had witnesses this is a two-hour show they not only had witnesses in the United States lined up in various places throughout the United States they even have a a TV connection by a satellite to the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union connection didn't work well and that caused changes this whole show was scripted and since you were supposed to read a certain thing that you're supposed to say and that would make it make this thing mega show run long very smoothly but within the collection of the Soviet Union suddenly started to fall apart they started rewriting the things that people who are supposed to say so the script was being changed during the show anyway it's for anyone who reads Colin's book this testimony by hawk that I have presented and by the way it's on my web site provides an interesting backup that you can't get now Hawk is still alive but he's not talking ever since Collins book eyes come out he has not said a word at least that I'm aware of and so what do you think what I've just told you is he had his own experiences and he recorded experiences of others now in Colin's book he goes off lot beyond what he told me you'd have to get Colin's book to find out exactly what that is but anyway I'll take any questions Hawk is not Pelican but since you brought up Pelican uh I might mention that someday I might give a program called the Pelican brief Pelican is a source who was informing me in the late 80s and early 90s of an investigation it was going on inside the government itself and to some extent it began in 1987 when I gave a lecture at the CIA now in 1970 December 1978 CIA public administration lawsuit initially the CIA said we only have what is called the Robertson panel report documents anybody here familiar with the Robertson panel report apparently not that was a study done in 19 1953 which basically hand the whole UFO subject and suggested that debunking would be a good approach to the problem of what do we do about UFO sighting reports so the CIA said that's all we had and I would than 30 40 pages of stuff maybe then a judge ordered the CIA to do a complete section by section search of the agency and when they did that they came up with 900 pages a lot of more duplicates a lot of them were copies of newspaper reports from other countries but there were a number of documents which showed the CIA in the early late 40s and early 50s was in fact reacting to the UFO problem and almost set up a top-secret investigation themselves which was by the way squashed by the Robertson panel so anyway the CIA said we didn't have anything about the Robertson panel report then in December 1978 they released nine herds of stuff when I gave a talk at the CIA in 1987 in July I told them about their own documents most of the people didn't know what had happened ten years earlier and so I was told afterwards you create a lot of spies in the agency there are a number of people who asked me gee what can you look what should I do to learn more about this you know I said well go and look in your own agency a little bit see what's going on so anyway getting these while getting the agency right to create these spies in the agency and then over the next five or six years there are a number of people who are reasonably high levels there who are nosing around trying to find stuff so far as I know they never told me if they did find something the far as I know they didn't find any inside group or whatever it is sort of consistent with what John is saying I'm not sure they would have told me if they had found it anyway the Pelican to read over the Pelican brief notes that I've got for five or six years worth of discussions is quite interesting to find out all these different people poking and looking into different holes here and there and see if they could find something the talk I gave of the CIA was unclassified lunch room type of a discussion I was told that I was given it was given in a room Jose obviously a conference room and I stole it was the directors conference room I didn't know it was pretty well packed with people and as I said far as I could tell few people if any knew that they had actually had UFO related documents in the agency my Navy work has nothing to do with UFOs by the way and the information that I was getting the Pelican source of information that was all more or less casual stuff though none of this was official official business or anything related to official Navy work I did have official Navy work relations with the CIA having to do with underwater sound but that was an independent of UFOs their uso is the under under unidentified submerged objects there have been a number of reports of things coming in and out of the water even there or even back in the 60s or 70s reports of high-speed underwater objects down in the around the tongue of the ocean and the Bahamas and so on I I'm sure there are real objects that have been seen associated with the water so I wouldn't be surprised yes water is about two-thirds of the earth is covered with water be a good place for aliens if they want to be hidden most of the time would be a good place for them to set up shop
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Tales of the Hawk tells the story of a Retired Air Force Colonel who worked at the Air Technical Intelligence Center at Wright Patterson Air Force Base which has been confirmed as a depository for recovered crash debris of extraterrestrial origin. His story is about his own "cover up" experiences. Dr Macabbee is one of the original developers of the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) and was instrumental in establishing the Fund for UFO Research.
The X-Conference is pleased to welcome UFO Researcher and Physicist Bruce Maccabee, PhD
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